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welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast

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hello and welcome to the skeptic zone

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episode 84 form a 28 2010 this is dr.

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Richie with you today filling in for

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Richard Saunders who's pretty under the

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weather this week Richard's had a cold

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for a few days which has now turned into

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some kind of laryngitis so he's sounding

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like a very croaky person right now and

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then yesterday he thinks he may have

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broken his toe so as we speak Richard is

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at the doctor's waiting for the verdict

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so we hope he gets better soon but on to

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this week's show this week our reporter

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Carly Sturgis has an interview with

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Warren bonnet who runs a skeptical and

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scientific book shop called embiggen

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books Warren also hosts lectures and

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talks and recently hosted the Nobel

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prize-winning immunologist professor

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peter doherty so we look forward to that

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interview this is followed by dr. Richie

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reports where I summarized the events

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leading up to Andrew Wakefield getting

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struck off the medical register in the

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UK last Tuesday so sit back listeners

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send your healing energies to Richard

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I'm Carly Sturgis and I'm talking to

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Warren Burnett Warren bonad is the

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creator of the in biggin bookstore a

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store located in noosaville in

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Queensland in the northeast of Australia

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what makes in biggin bookstore different

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is that it is devoted to selling and

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promoting rationalism and science

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through its store Warren is a regular

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feature on the token skeptic podcast as

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a book reviewer and as an active skeptic

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you can see many of the lectures that he

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holds in his store promoted on his

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website thank you very much for joining

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me Warren first of all what did you do

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before you owned a bookstore wow that's

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an immense variety of stuff right I'm a

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I'm a graphic designer that's something

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I've been doing for quite a long time

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but over the course of my years since

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leaving University of done everything

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from a whole variety of salesman book

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designer cook waiter barman teacher

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legal clerk veterinary assistant and I

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spent a year and a half riding my push

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bike around Australia wonderful and so

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what led to the creation of the in vegan

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bookstore I mean that is after all a

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reference to a Simpsons joke isn't it it

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is yes if the joke being that a noble

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spiriting begins even the smallest man

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was a show which was exploring the

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nature of of language and how urban

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myths develop and and Lisa Simpson

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wanting to get to the truth and that

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episode wasn't really what made the word

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come to mind for us it was actually the

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word in vegan turning up in a string

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theory paper a noble spirit in where it

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where he says the d-brane in Biggins

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into an e brain and the reviewer of that

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the peer reviewer wrote that he thought

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it was a perfectly cromulent idea which

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another Simpsons word so that was that

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was pretty good but um

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thing that led to the creation of the

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store was it's really been a very very

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long time coming at university I I

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started and very long time ago a whole

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variety different philosophers and

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ethicists and and it started to dawn on

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me that I would like to do something

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that was positive in contribution to a

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variety of problems that the world seems

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to have or humanity seems to at least

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engage with them I wasn't really sure

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how to go about doing that and that

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actually led to me having a whole

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variety of jobs believe it or not

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because i was i was quite interested in

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in not just being an academic in trying

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to get out there and see what people

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thought and and and what how they felt

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about stuff and so in after leaving my

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environmental ethics course i found

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people in my first job which was a

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working in corporate affairs in victoria

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which is a government body i I met

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people that have never heard of the

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ozone layer Wow and this was at the time

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when the hole in the ozone layer had

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effectively just been announced it was

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all over the news and met people that

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had never heard of the ozone layer and

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that's when I knew that the problem was

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going to be a lot bigger than I thought

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ticket it wasn't just dealing with

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specific problems it was dealing with

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any huge amount of not just ignorance

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ignorance is really the wrong word

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it's just a lack of engagement in things

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to do with democracy for instance you

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know people are voting on issues

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frequently that they're completely

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uneducated on which to me undermines

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democracy democracy requires an educated

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populace in my opinion and if you don't

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have it then the votes are somewhat

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compromised and so we're having people

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who were in voting physicians who were

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voting not for governments that were

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going to have policies on dealing with

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the ozone layer and yet the people

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didn't know what the ozone layer even

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wats see so many many years later

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lots of different and ways of trying to

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look at the problem I really thought

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that a bookstore that didn't require

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people to join an organization to become

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an ism or a nest or anything like that

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if a bookstore stopped offering all of

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the irrational stuff and then he's

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offered mostly rational material then

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anyone could engage with the material

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without doing anything I could simply

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walk into a bookstore and they would

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find like in our shot you walk in the

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door and you're faced with 3,000 science

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books as soon as you walk in the door

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and that's that's really been the goal

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is to make something that and hopefully

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will work as a business model we haven't

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really proved that yet but it's slowly

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getting there but if it does work it

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means we could set up these little

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rational bastions around the cities and

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then conduct science talks and

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philosophy talks in them as a matter of

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course which is what we do now why in

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Queensland rather than Victoria you said

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that you first learned about people's

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lack of knowledge about the ozone layer

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when you're Victoria why choose

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Queensland uh well mm I Queensland was

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kind of chosen for me really I was

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living in the UK in London for 20 years

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and I worked mostly as a designer there

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but a whole variety of other things and

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my best friend in Australia and Kirsty

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Bruce was working in the film industry

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and she bought a house in Queensland on

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the sunshine coast and when I came back

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and I went to visit Kirsty it's my best

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friend and and then we kissed ah a new

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birth date so then we were both still

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freelancing at the time and we wanted to

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try and find a way to make things work

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here and that's when the bookshop really

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came to the fore until oh well it's

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undo it here and and that's all done

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literally sunk everything we can in to

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making it work just try and make as

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bigger impact as we can I've recently

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read on facebook Warren a situation

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where an uncle was criticized for giving

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Daniel Loxton evolution book to his

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nieces do you have any advice on how to

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handle situations like that where people

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might like to encourage reading on

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rationalism and science but they know

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that there's going to be opposition yeah

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it's something I do come across from

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time to time and there's no one blanket

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book to be able to hand out to everyone

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in every situation because everyone has

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their own sort of tentativeness but i

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tend to suggest start with things that

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are off-topic don't don't don't stay

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general stay with things that are to do

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with critical thinking start of the

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basis you don't start with subjects like

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say evolution because that can open up a

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lot of other things at the same time and

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that will prevent any critical

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engagement with the subject at all so I

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tend to start with just thought I'd

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start with thinking so things like Phil

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cams books or if they're for kids or if

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they're not for kids things like crimes

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against logic by Jamie white or demon

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haunted world the absolute classic I

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mean they're not specifically attacking

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any any particular issue other than the

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way people think about things and so I

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think that's that's the best place to

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start on any of those sorts of things if

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if the adult is that they're giving them

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to or if they've come in themselves and

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have made a few inquiries about things

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that you think they might be open to

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something a little bit more then you

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could go more direct for instance I had

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some women come into the shop at one

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point two and we were having a Charles

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Darwin day and they said oh what

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are you doing that for wasn't he like

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one of the most evil men in history Wow

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and these were University educated

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40-something women not religious

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particularly one of them was married to

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a religious person but no real

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religiosity there they just simply had

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this misconception so I simply handed

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the mayor biography of Charles Darwin

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which they both devoured within 24 hours

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and now they run the like run a local

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sort of non-fiction book club meetup

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between women and they're also now

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recently bought Christopher Hitchens

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book god is not great and a variety of

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others and they're they're amazing they

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just come in and and they devour things

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now it's wonderful oh that raises my

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next question do you have a cafe

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attached to your bookstore there's one

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next door to us called organika orgánica

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is staffed by really lovely people and

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that they do deal with a few problematic

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items i also just say things like

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homeopathic remedies and um ear candling

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stuff you know all that gum and it

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causes us a fairly high degree of

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heartache because they're just not

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engaged in the material they don't want

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to be engaged in the material really and

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they're they're running a business

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they're giving people what they want in

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that arena so people who are into

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organic food also tend to head towards

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things like that apparently so in fact

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we frequently get people who stop there

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to eat and drink come next door

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expecting to find a spiritual new age

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bookshop and and and one person in

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particular actually got angry that we

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weren't

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and you know it's a bit misleading being

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next to organika like that don't you

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think yeah and though as they walked out

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the woman turned to the man and said oh

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it's one of those bookshops aloo have no

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idea what that means but clearly she did

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spoke and every they walk past about

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once or twice a week to go the coffee

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and and every time I catch them walking

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past the window they can't see any but i

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can see ya they sort of peering into the

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shop with a bit of a smile on their face

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so it's quite amusing night well you

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never know maybe one day they'll come

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back in again to give a piece of their

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mind as they go off to have another

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piece of cake and perhaps you might be

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able to get some dialogue happening yeah

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well I have done with a few but there

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there are some people who do seem to be

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a little bit beyond it there's a lot of

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anti-vaxxers that go there and they come

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in here and have a bit of an argument

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from time to time and yeah um expect you

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know look at our medical section on the

279
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shelf and see people like Paul off it

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and Simon Singh and say what about the

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other side of the argument and I said

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well that's really politics it's not

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science this is a science book shop just

284
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try and contain it that way you know

285
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just say look there there's no science

286
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that's really coming out against this in

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the way that you think it is so I need

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to stock science books that's that's

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what that section is so that brings me

290
00:14:17,630 --> 00:14:16,140
to my next question which is what's it

291
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like in the region where your book

292
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stories you've already started to give a

293
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hint with clues about the AC vaccination

294
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crowd in the region of Queensland where

295
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you are yeah it's um it's a it really is

296
00:14:32,180 --> 00:14:30,360
a bit of a mixture there's a small

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community of people who are very

298
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actively engaged in intellectual life

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and and there's a crossover between them

300
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and the more spiritual new-agey kind

301
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that meet in the middle where the

302
00:14:55,220 --> 00:14:53,339
environmentalists inhabit now I would be

303
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classified as an environmentalist I was

304
00:14:58,610 --> 00:14:56,640
trained in environmental ethics

305
00:15:01,400 --> 00:14:58,620
an outdoor education initially so I've

306
00:15:05,570 --> 00:15:01,410
got a background in that and a lot of

307
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that area is actually caught up in quite

308
00:15:14,210 --> 00:15:11,760
a lot of misinformation about the world

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and then nature of nature is good nature

310
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is wonderful nature will provide nature

311
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is the best thing that ever happened and

312
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they don't and therefore natural

313
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products are good and so you get a lot

314
00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:26,880
of anti sciences with anti science

315
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people in the environment movement so

316
00:15:34,310 --> 00:15:32,420
the intellectuals on one side

317
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environmentalists in the middle complete

318
00:15:38,480 --> 00:15:36,000
lures on the other and being in the

319
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middle of the environmentalists now on

320
00:15:46,930 --> 00:15:42,420
the war side we have practitioners of

321
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:46,940
Gerson Therapy here and which is a

322
00:15:54,470 --> 00:15:50,310
spectacularly debunked range of

323
00:16:00,080 --> 00:15:54,480
therapies for cancers oh wow and their

324
00:16:02,900 --> 00:16:00,090
coffee enemas Oh corsets in in quantum

325
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:02,910
consciousness there are psychic

326
00:16:07,220 --> 00:16:05,040
hairdressers how that would be

327
00:16:12,230 --> 00:16:07,230
fascinating what do they do what do they

328
00:16:14,180 --> 00:16:12,240
I don't know but at one point when the

329
00:16:17,540 --> 00:16:14,190
economic crisis hit they they didn't put

330
00:16:18,950 --> 00:16:17,550
a sign in their window saying I think it

331
00:16:21,380 --> 00:16:18,960
was one one way the other was either

332
00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:21,390
free free psychic reading with every

333
00:16:24,710 --> 00:16:23,130
haircut or free here come with every

334
00:16:28,610 --> 00:16:24,720
psychic reading I can't move which one

335
00:16:32,900 --> 00:16:28,620
it but had quite amusing there are aura

336
00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:32,910
comas there are Reiki masters and we

337
00:16:37,430 --> 00:16:34,470
have them coming in the shop from time

338
00:16:39,050 --> 00:16:37,440
to time and we also have people who are

339
00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:39,060
led to their shop by their intuitive

340
00:16:44,060 --> 00:16:42,690
spirit guides Oh Jen all that intuitive

341
00:16:47,270 --> 00:16:44,070
if they're walking in there trying to

342
00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:47,280
find us and and we have Fung Shui people

343
00:16:55,070 --> 00:16:51,810
saying i love the space it's just great

344
00:16:59,360 --> 00:16:55,080
energy in here um did you did you work

345
00:17:02,300 --> 00:16:59,370
out all the fun Shui and I know

346
00:17:05,390 --> 00:17:02,310
yes it's just natural that way yeah yes

347
00:17:08,299 --> 00:17:05,400
yeah yeah I'm just understood designer I

348
00:17:12,319 --> 00:17:08,309
just designed it that's that's it that's

349
00:17:16,429 --> 00:17:12,329
it yes there's a lot of that so we it is

350
00:17:18,620 --> 00:17:16,439
a difficult and line to tread because I

351
00:17:21,189 --> 00:17:18,630
don't want to send them just packing I

352
00:17:22,910 --> 00:17:21,199
want to try and get them to engage with

353
00:17:25,069 --> 00:17:22,920
material that they might not otherwise

354
00:17:27,319 --> 00:17:25,079
engage with and and that's why I

355
00:17:29,330 --> 00:17:27,329
mentioned before start them off on

356
00:17:33,110 --> 00:17:29,340
things to do with thinking start them

357
00:17:35,990 --> 00:17:33,120
off on stuff that will potentially get

358
00:17:37,790 --> 00:17:36,000
them to question their assumptions and

359
00:17:41,120 --> 00:17:37,800
that's really hard there's a lot of not

360
00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:41,130
a lot of material I think that can

361
00:17:48,440 --> 00:17:43,890
actually engage people who are hostile

362
00:17:50,930 --> 00:17:48,450
to sort I first got to learn of you

363
00:17:53,000 --> 00:17:50,940
online but we met in person at the

364
00:17:55,010 --> 00:17:53,010
Australian skeptics convention last year

365
00:17:56,510 --> 00:17:55,020
in Brisbane where you were the official

366
00:17:58,370 --> 00:17:56,520
bookstore what are some of the

367
00:17:59,960 --> 00:17:58,380
recommendations you have for people who

368
00:18:05,150 --> 00:17:59,970
are interested in good skeptical books

369
00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:05,160
oh there are so many great thing to know

370
00:18:08,930 --> 00:18:07,290
because i have so many people searching

371
00:18:10,730 --> 00:18:08,940
my site for them so it's wonderful to

372
00:18:12,169 --> 00:18:10,740
know that someone says there's lots of

373
00:18:15,110 --> 00:18:12,179
the mouth in what do you recommend first

374
00:18:17,690 --> 00:18:15,120
off well i'll be my number one choice

375
00:18:19,480 --> 00:18:17,700
for all things skeptical is still Dave

376
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:19,490
demon haunted world it's just

377
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:22,650
beautifully written I would have to say

378
00:18:27,140 --> 00:18:25,080
that Martin bridge stocks book beyond

379
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:27,150
belief has got to be high up there too

380
00:18:32,840 --> 00:18:31,170
it's a it really engages with the

381
00:18:34,760 --> 00:18:32,850
material in quite a different way to

382
00:18:37,370 --> 00:18:34,770
demon haunted world and it's I think a

383
00:18:40,669 --> 00:18:37,380
nice companion piece I think the two

384
00:18:42,710 --> 00:18:40,679
work together quite well and for reasons

385
00:18:46,040 --> 00:18:42,720
that I don't think would be immediately

386
00:18:48,350 --> 00:18:46,050
apparent and crimes against logic the

387
00:18:51,860 --> 00:18:48,360
Jamie white book and that's a real

388
00:18:54,230 --> 00:18:51,870
number one book for thinking so a

389
00:18:56,030 --> 00:18:54,240
cracking little book I have to find that

390
00:18:59,830 --> 00:18:56,040
one I haven't got that one so I better

391
00:19:02,390 --> 00:18:59,840
make sure i order from your site oh okay

392
00:19:05,390 --> 00:19:02,400
yeah it's it's very good it's and it's

393
00:19:08,660 --> 00:19:05,400
quite slim because in at the heart of

394
00:19:10,850 --> 00:19:08,670
critical thinking logic is at the basis

395
00:19:12,680 --> 00:19:10,860
of that and so it's a and he's a

396
00:19:15,690 --> 00:19:12,690
terrific philosopher

397
00:19:18,380 --> 00:19:15,700
he's got a couple of others but I don't

398
00:19:22,740 --> 00:19:18,390
have them in stock at the moment and

399
00:19:26,070 --> 00:19:22,750
Julian bikinis work oh yes he is

400
00:19:30,360 --> 00:19:26,080
terrific I really really like him it's

401
00:19:35,730 --> 00:19:30,370
just got a great a great voice it's it's

402
00:19:38,549 --> 00:19:35,740
really contained and it's not given to

403
00:19:41,730 --> 00:19:38,559
hyperbole he really tries to keep things

404
00:19:44,070 --> 00:19:41,740
quite mellow is the mellow English

405
00:19:48,870 --> 00:19:44,080
philosopher who engages in tricky

406
00:19:50,400 --> 00:19:48,880
material and I like reading I liked

407
00:19:52,140 --> 00:19:50,410
reading everything he's written so one

408
00:19:54,030 --> 00:19:52,150
of his ones in particular is do you

409
00:19:57,030 --> 00:19:54,040
think what you think you think yes

410
00:20:00,060 --> 00:19:57,040
that's a cracker and he's also done

411
00:20:04,490 --> 00:20:00,070
philosophy behind the headlines the

412
00:20:07,260 --> 00:20:04,500
Philosopher's toolkit and each of these

413
00:20:11,850 --> 00:20:07,270
are great for anyone who wants to engage

414
00:20:13,890 --> 00:20:11,860
in skepticism yeah I even used the pig

415
00:20:16,860 --> 00:20:13,900
who wishes to be eaten with my high

416
00:20:20,750 --> 00:20:16,870
school classes oh good very good it's a

417
00:20:24,030 --> 00:20:20,760
crack a great book grandpa so yes and

418
00:20:25,710 --> 00:20:24,040
there there are a variety of others most

419
00:20:29,750 --> 00:20:25,720
a lot of the Philosopher's have written

420
00:20:32,730 --> 00:20:29,760
material that I would also suggest so I

421
00:20:35,480 --> 00:20:32,740
AC Grayling is one of my favorites

422
00:20:38,610 --> 00:20:35,490
although it's not directly engaged in in

423
00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:38,620
skepticism he tends to deal with more

424
00:20:45,330 --> 00:20:41,410
with things like secular humanist ethics

425
00:20:47,460 --> 00:20:45,340
and problems of of ethical

426
00:20:51,150 --> 00:20:47,470
considerations and moral considerations

427
00:20:54,350 --> 00:20:51,160
and but he also engages in really modern

428
00:20:56,549 --> 00:20:54,360
material so is done work on on the

429
00:20:59,250 --> 00:20:56,559
collateral damage for instance during

430
00:21:01,799 --> 00:20:59,260
the war truth claims and a lot of truth

431
00:21:04,610 --> 00:21:01,809
claims are made in in ethical areas and

432
00:21:06,660 --> 00:21:04,620
moral areas and and skepticism

433
00:21:07,950 --> 00:21:06,670
traditionally does avoid them and I

434
00:21:10,590 --> 00:21:07,960
think it traditionally avoids them

435
00:21:13,919 --> 00:21:10,600
primarily because it's really messy yeah

436
00:21:17,310 --> 00:21:13,929
I see grayling as a way to start

437
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:17,320
thinking critically about ethical issues

438
00:21:23,190 --> 00:21:20,290
is it's my chosen author in that area

439
00:21:25,529 --> 00:21:23,200
yeah you will also recently

440
00:21:27,169 --> 00:21:25,539
add a humanist convention that happened

441
00:21:30,450 --> 00:21:27,179
in Queensland can you tell us about that

442
00:21:32,100 --> 00:21:30,460
yes I was invited to be a speaker I 10

443
00:21:36,899 --> 00:21:32,110
yes what did you talk about what

444
00:21:41,460 --> 00:21:36,909
happened and well I I am my topic was my

445
00:21:44,850 --> 00:21:41,470
my talk was taught labeled what Julia

446
00:21:50,190 --> 00:21:44,860
said to Richard mmm I don't know if you

447
00:21:53,730 --> 00:21:50,200
saw the Q and I a month or so ago a

448
00:21:57,090 --> 00:21:53,740
little bit with Julia Bishop and Richard

449
00:21:59,190 --> 00:21:57,100
Dawkins yes sure yes it's been it's been

450
00:22:02,460 --> 00:21:59,200
featured on line and I've watched it

451
00:22:06,659 --> 00:22:02,470
again recently years yeah so she was

452
00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:06,669
asked the question was do you believe in

453
00:22:13,019 --> 00:22:09,490
an afterlife and her response was along

454
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:13,029
the lines of well I can't believe that

455
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:15,850
this is it is this it is this all we

456
00:22:23,100 --> 00:22:20,320
have on earth hmm I am always amazed

457
00:22:26,009 --> 00:22:23,110
when I hear that sort of comment even

458
00:22:28,740 --> 00:22:26,019
though I do tend to hear variations of

459
00:22:32,789 --> 00:22:28,750
their comment on a regular basis and so

460
00:22:35,789 --> 00:22:32,799
I made my talk about answering that

461
00:22:37,049 --> 00:22:35,799
question is this evil what yeah it was

462
00:22:39,060 --> 00:22:37,059
good i really enjoyed it and the

463
00:22:41,789 --> 00:22:39,070
feedback was really good it was my first

464
00:22:44,340 --> 00:22:41,799
attempt of public speaking brilliant

465
00:22:46,259 --> 00:22:44,350
well done you well that's great yeah

466
00:22:50,970 --> 00:22:46,269
that was good and we had a little

467
00:22:54,029 --> 00:22:50,980
bookstore there as well and where I just

468
00:22:55,950 --> 00:22:54,039
featured more of our humanist stock as

469
00:23:01,740 --> 00:22:55,960
well as some of the critical thinking

470
00:23:03,570 --> 00:23:01,750
work and at that particular session

471
00:23:05,850 --> 00:23:03,580
probably the best selling book of the

472
00:23:07,830 --> 00:23:05,860
day was Bertrand Russell's histories of

473
00:23:10,379 --> 00:23:07,840
Western thought or histories of Western

474
00:23:12,539 --> 00:23:10,389
philosophy sir I mean I got that one is

475
00:23:14,100 --> 00:23:12,549
a very young person when i first started

476
00:23:16,740 --> 00:23:14,110
my philosophy degree and it's still a

477
00:23:19,080 --> 00:23:16,750
favorite of mine it is a cracker isn't

478
00:23:20,669 --> 00:23:19,090
it yeah it's a wonderful book if people

479
00:23:22,799 --> 00:23:20,679
go to your website they can see a

480
00:23:24,600 --> 00:23:22,809
variety of other lectures that people

481
00:23:26,700 --> 00:23:24,610
have given at your bookstore all free

482
00:23:30,779 --> 00:23:26,710
for viewing online one of our primary

483
00:23:34,409 --> 00:23:30,789
aims is to bring in thinkers scientists

484
00:23:36,509 --> 00:23:34,419
philosophers to the public that don't

485
00:23:38,459 --> 00:23:36,519
normally get to see them n

486
00:23:41,879 --> 00:23:38,469
really especially in an area like this

487
00:23:43,799 --> 00:23:41,889
you don't really get people like the

488
00:23:45,509 --> 00:23:43,809
ones we get to come and speak so the

489
00:23:47,249 --> 00:23:45,519
last weekend we had Russell Blackford

490
00:23:49,190 --> 00:23:47,259
who was also a speaker at the Atheist

491
00:23:52,409 --> 00:23:49,200
convention come and speak in the shop

492
00:23:54,719 --> 00:23:52,419
and we were packed for that we had about

493
00:23:58,409 --> 00:23:54,729
65 people in the shop now we can only

494
00:24:00,359 --> 00:23:58,419
really seek 45 so that was amazing and

495
00:24:03,509 --> 00:24:00,369
that was great and Russell was terrific

496
00:24:06,810 --> 00:24:03,519
he gave a really good talk on sort of

497
00:24:09,959 --> 00:24:06,820
the history of all things that are

498
00:24:12,180 --> 00:24:09,969
behind secular issues and secular

499
00:24:14,219 --> 00:24:12,190
philosophy and and why you might be

500
00:24:17,639 --> 00:24:14,229
interested in having a secular society

501
00:24:21,389 --> 00:24:17,649
even if you're religious so that talk

502
00:24:23,789 --> 00:24:21,399
will be going online next week we've

503
00:24:26,519 --> 00:24:23,799
also had Peter Elton a critical thinking

504
00:24:30,629 --> 00:24:26,529
award winner along with Martin bridge

505
00:24:34,109 --> 00:24:30,639
doc professor ian fraser the great

506
00:24:38,940 --> 00:24:34,119
scientist at the center of developing a

507
00:24:41,759 --> 00:24:38,950
vaccine for cervical cancer pack Ian

508
00:24:45,029 --> 00:24:41,769
Lowe and a variety of environmental

509
00:24:47,940 --> 00:24:45,039
scientists and other authors who are

510
00:24:50,219 --> 00:24:47,950
engaged in scientific issues so we we

511
00:24:51,989 --> 00:24:50,229
video them we put them online we also

512
00:24:53,729 --> 00:24:51,999
try and include the questions that are

513
00:24:57,149 --> 00:24:53,739
actually asked of them in the audience

514
00:25:00,029 --> 00:24:57,159
so that we can try and start getting a

515
00:25:03,690 --> 00:25:00,039
dialogue between people whose view them

516
00:25:05,190 --> 00:25:03,700
locally and people who are outside of

517
00:25:07,859 --> 00:25:05,200
the region who might be viewing it from

518
00:25:10,529 --> 00:25:07,869
over overseas or somewhere else in

519
00:25:13,169 --> 00:25:10,539
Australia so I would really like to be

520
00:25:14,789 --> 00:25:13,179
able to get that blog to be a focal

521
00:25:18,029 --> 00:25:14,799
point for conversation about those

522
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:18,039
things because some you don't get videos

523
00:25:20,729 --> 00:25:19,450
of these things otherwise and they're

524
00:25:22,799 --> 00:25:20,739
not where else you're going to find a

525
00:25:25,139 --> 00:25:22,809
one hour long video of Martin bridge

526
00:25:26,969 --> 00:25:25,149
stop talking about skepticism absolutely

527
00:25:28,469 --> 00:25:26,979
brilliant it's a wonderful place to to

528
00:25:30,629 --> 00:25:28,479
see them and you get to see what a

529
00:25:32,789 --> 00:25:30,639
beautiful book store you have so people

530
00:25:36,479 --> 00:25:32,799
do have the chance to come and see it

531
00:25:39,329 --> 00:25:36,489
what's the actual address of it we're in

532
00:25:44,129 --> 00:25:39,339
noosaville we're on why the road which

533
00:25:45,930 --> 00:25:44,139
is w ey be a 205 why burrowed we're just

534
00:25:47,590 --> 00:25:45,940
up the road from aldi and next to

535
00:25:50,260 --> 00:25:47,600
orgánica

536
00:25:52,390 --> 00:25:50,270
so look for the two stores that are sort

537
00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:52,400
of looking sideways at each other and

538
00:25:58,360 --> 00:25:56,330
saying and with yeah yeah and the

539
00:26:01,450 --> 00:25:58,370
website of course is in big and books

540
00:26:03,610 --> 00:26:01,460
calm isn't it yes I did have someone

541
00:26:06,279 --> 00:26:03,620
asked me about these people can order

542
00:26:08,529 --> 00:26:06,289
online read reviews online contribute

543
00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:08,539
reviews online as well as contribute to

544
00:26:14,169 --> 00:26:11,650
the blog can't they indeedy they can we

545
00:26:15,400 --> 00:26:14,179
welcome reviews particularly on those

546
00:26:18,610 --> 00:26:15,410
sorts of books that we've been talking

547
00:26:22,510 --> 00:26:18,620
about the skeptical books because it

548
00:26:24,490 --> 00:26:22,520
helps to have other people's views on

549
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:24,500
these things each each of the books have

550
00:26:28,690 --> 00:26:27,530
strengths and weaknesses and you can be

551
00:26:32,350 --> 00:26:28,700
recommended under different

552
00:26:33,880 --> 00:26:32,360
circumstances as we've seen and even

553
00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:33,890
I've contributed a book review but

554
00:26:40,049 --> 00:26:37,610
mine's a bit silly no no and we've had

555
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:40,059
some good reviews another great review

556
00:26:47,320 --> 00:26:44,090
yours and Sean the blogger naught oh yes

557
00:26:50,080 --> 00:26:47,330
he's done a couple of cracking reviews

558
00:26:52,180 --> 00:26:50,090
for us as well sir and he said is to you

559
00:26:53,500 --> 00:26:52,190
to deliver another and I need to get on

560
00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:53,510
to him about that because he's a bit

561
00:26:57,100 --> 00:26:55,250
late yep so if you're listening Sean

562
00:27:01,210 --> 00:26:57,110
which I'm certain you are get moving on

563
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:01,220
it yeah great okay so people head over

564
00:27:06,970 --> 00:27:05,330
to ww embiggen books calm and buy from

565
00:27:08,380 --> 00:27:06,980
you online i think is an important thing

566
00:27:10,000 --> 00:27:08,390
let's see we can encourage more

567
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:10,010
rationalist book stores out there to

568
00:27:16,690 --> 00:27:13,610
keep on thriving DD also just to bear in

569
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:16,700
mind that a large proportion of our

570
00:27:22,240 --> 00:27:19,730
profits as small as they are due simply

571
00:27:24,399 --> 00:27:22,250
go back into science outreach because

572
00:27:26,529 --> 00:27:24,409
that's that's our mo that's why we're

573
00:27:28,180 --> 00:27:26,539
here if we can't increase scientific

574
00:27:31,060 --> 00:27:28,190
literacy in the community then we're

575
00:27:35,710 --> 00:27:31,070
failing really do thank you so much for

576
00:27:37,210 --> 00:27:35,720
talking to us wallet my pleasure thanks

577
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:37,220
again to warren if you would like to

578
00:27:44,409 --> 00:27:39,770
hear our monthly book reviews head over

579
00:27:47,620 --> 00:27:44,419
to the token skeptic podcast at ww token

580
00:27:59,010 --> 00:27:47,630
skeptical warren site is found out in

581
00:28:03,490 --> 00:28:01,150
examining the truth in exposing the

582
00:28:05,500 --> 00:28:03,500
frauds that psychics co uk is the

583
00:28:07,600 --> 00:28:05,510
website that critically examines mediums

584
00:28:09,430 --> 00:28:07,610
clairvoyants and psychics follow the

585
00:28:11,530 --> 00:28:09,440
controversies news and discussions in

586
00:28:13,030 --> 00:28:11,540
the lively forum community and now you

587
00:28:14,710 --> 00:28:13,040
can download your weekly fix of

588
00:28:17,080 --> 00:28:14,720
righteous indignation the official

589
00:28:18,340 --> 00:28:17,090
podcast of bad psychics khodet UK that

590
00:28:21,460 --> 00:28:18,350
talks hard and critically about

591
00:28:23,230 --> 00:28:21,470
paranormal bad psychics doctor at UK the

592
00:28:34,660 --> 00:28:23,240
UK's largest and most respected

593
00:28:37,420 --> 00:28:34,670
skeptical site looking at psychics now

594
00:28:42,460 --> 00:28:37,430
it's time for dr. Rachel reports with

595
00:28:45,550 --> 00:28:42,470
dr. Rachel Dunlop hello listeners and

596
00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:45,560
welcome to dr. Richie reports it may

597
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:47,450
have come 12 years too late but finally

598
00:28:51,580 --> 00:28:49,850
Andrew Wakefield the doctor who sparked

599
00:28:54,880 --> 00:28:51,590
the worldwide controversy about the

600
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:54,890
safety of the MMR vaccine the measles

601
00:29:00,280 --> 00:28:57,650
mumps rubella has been struck off the UK

602
00:29:02,290 --> 00:29:00,290
medical register the white field

603
00:29:04,000 --> 00:29:02,300
investigation was the longest in the

604
00:29:07,210 --> 00:29:04,010
history of the General Medical Council

605
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:07,220
in the UK with the disciplinary panel

606
00:29:13,750 --> 00:29:11,330
sitting for a total of 148 days over a

607
00:29:17,860 --> 00:29:13,760
period of two and a half years at an

608
00:29:19,330 --> 00:29:17,870
estimated cost of 1 million pounds the

609
00:29:21,010 --> 00:29:19,340
results of the investigation were

610
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:21,020
revealed in a hundred and forty three

611
00:29:27,370 --> 00:29:25,010
page report on January the 28 2010 and

612
00:29:29,260 --> 00:29:27,380
they found that Wakefield showed a

613
00:29:31,210 --> 00:29:29,270
callous disregard for children's

614
00:29:34,530 --> 00:29:31,220
suffering and abused his position of

615
00:29:36,700 --> 00:29:34,540
trust and in a statement the GMC

616
00:29:38,620 --> 00:29:36,710
determined that dr. Wakefield's name

617
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:38,630
should be erased from the medical

618
00:29:46,870 --> 00:29:42,050
register and so this came to be on May

619
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:46,880
the 25th 2010 now this decision follows

620
00:29:51,310 --> 00:29:48,890
an investigation into Wakefield's

621
00:29:54,550 --> 00:29:51,320
behavior because of his publication that

622
00:29:56,650 --> 00:29:54,560
appeared in The Lancet in 1998 now

623
00:30:00,340 --> 00:29:56,660
although this publication itself did not

624
00:30:02,320 --> 00:30:00,350
make a link between MMR and autism it

625
00:30:03,769 --> 00:30:02,330
was at a press conference after the

626
00:30:05,539 --> 00:30:03,779
paper was published

627
00:30:08,719 --> 00:30:05,549
we're wakefield first suggested this

628
00:30:11,419 --> 00:30:08,729
link he urged caution and advised

629
00:30:14,599 --> 00:30:11,429
parents to seek out single vaccines for

630
00:30:16,969 --> 00:30:14,609
measles mumps or rubella so Wakefield

631
00:30:19,219 --> 00:30:16,979
statements resonated worldwide and this

632
00:30:21,799 --> 00:30:19,229
scared way many parents from vaccinating

633
00:30:24,649 --> 00:30:21,809
their children and also firmly cemented

634
00:30:26,749 --> 00:30:24,659
the anti-vaccination movement the

635
00:30:29,209 --> 00:30:26,759
resulting drop in vaccine compliance

636
00:30:31,940 --> 00:30:29,219
continues to contribute to outbreaks of

637
00:30:34,940 --> 00:30:31,950
vaccine-preventable diseases and we have

638
00:30:39,619 --> 00:30:34,950
seen outbreaks of measles whooping cough

639
00:30:41,389 --> 00:30:39,629
and mumps in recent months so some of

640
00:30:43,070 --> 00:30:41,399
the findings from the GMC weather

641
00:30:46,099 --> 00:30:43,080
Wakefield was found to have brought the

642
00:30:48,529 --> 00:30:46,109
medical profession into disrepute and it

643
00:30:51,019 --> 00:30:48,539
was in reference to him taking blood

644
00:30:52,609 --> 00:30:51,029
samples for the study from children who

645
00:30:56,239 --> 00:30:52,619
were attending his son's birthday party

646
00:30:58,669 --> 00:30:56,249
in return for five pounds reward now

647
00:31:00,259 --> 00:30:58,679
Wakefield was later filmed laughing and

648
00:31:02,930 --> 00:31:00,269
joking at a conference about the

649
00:31:04,759 --> 00:31:02,940
children fainting and vomiting here's

650
00:31:07,190 --> 00:31:04,769
what Wakefield had to say to Matt Lauer

651
00:31:10,759 --> 00:31:07,200
of the USA Today Show with reference to

652
00:31:12,649 --> 00:31:10,769
this incident he needed some control

653
00:31:16,369 --> 00:31:12,659
blood from children who were entirely

654
00:31:17,719 --> 00:31:16,379
normal and so I asked my children and my

655
00:31:19,249 --> 00:31:17,729
wife said we've got a birthday party

656
00:31:20,329 --> 00:31:19,259
coming up we've got some medical friends

657
00:31:21,829 --> 00:31:20,339
why don't we ask them if they'd be

658
00:31:24,139 --> 00:31:21,839
prepared to let their children do it too

659
00:31:25,789 --> 00:31:24,149
so seven or eight children said sure I

660
00:31:27,259 --> 00:31:25,799
don't know why that sounds funny to me

661
00:31:29,930 --> 00:31:27,269
but it does at a children's birthday

662
00:31:31,789 --> 00:31:29,940
party blood samples being drawn from

663
00:31:34,399 --> 00:31:31,799
children were they paid for the samples

664
00:31:36,109 --> 00:31:34,409
they were rewarded they weren't paid how

665
00:31:38,810 --> 00:31:36,119
are they at the end of the party they

666
00:31:40,969 --> 00:31:38,820
were given five pounds that at the time

667
00:31:43,609 --> 00:31:40,979
I guess about it why isn't that paying

668
00:31:45,589 --> 00:31:43,619
them well it's not saying up front by

669
00:31:47,329 --> 00:31:45,599
coercing them you do this we're going to

670
00:31:50,869 --> 00:31:47,339
give you money it's saying at the end of

671
00:31:52,669 --> 00:31:50,879
it here's a reward for for helping it's

672
00:31:54,619 --> 00:31:52,679
completely ridiculous that Wakefield

673
00:31:57,469 --> 00:31:54,629
would expect this method of collecting

674
00:31:59,930 --> 00:31:57,479
samples for a study to be ethical and

675
00:32:01,729 --> 00:31:59,940
aboveboard he is either completely

676
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:01,739
clueless when it comes to the strict

677
00:32:06,310 --> 00:32:03,690
procedures instructed by ethics

678
00:32:08,869 --> 00:32:06,320
committees or is completely incompetent

679
00:32:10,849 --> 00:32:08,879
so in addition Wakefield conducted

680
00:32:13,099 --> 00:32:10,859
unnecessary painful and intrusive

681
00:32:15,769 --> 00:32:13,109
diagnostic treatments on children and

682
00:32:16,419 --> 00:32:15,779
these included colonoscopies and spinal

683
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:16,429
taps

684
00:32:22,269 --> 00:32:19,610
now in further investigations sunday

685
00:32:24,549 --> 00:32:22,279
times journalists Bryan dear revealed

686
00:32:27,460 --> 00:32:24,559
that Wakefield did not disclose serious

687
00:32:29,350 --> 00:32:27,470
financial conflicts of interest now dear

688
00:32:31,930 --> 00:32:29,360
provided evidence that Wakefield was

689
00:32:34,509 --> 00:32:31,940
paid thousands of pounds by lawyers

690
00:32:38,230 --> 00:32:34,519
seeking a link between the MMR vaccine

691
00:32:41,009 --> 00:32:38,240
and autism and Wakefield also had a

692
00:32:43,629 --> 00:32:41,019
patent on his own single measles vaccine

693
00:32:44,950 --> 00:32:43,639
similar to the one he urged parents to

694
00:32:48,310 --> 00:32:44,960
seek out at the press conference

695
00:32:50,340 --> 00:32:48,320
following the publishing of the paper so

696
00:32:53,590 --> 00:32:50,350
things began to crumble for wakefield in

697
00:32:55,779 --> 00:32:53,600
2004 when 10 of the 12 authors on The

698
00:32:58,659 --> 00:32:55,789
Lancet paper withdrew their names from

699
00:33:01,090 --> 00:32:58,669
the publication stating we wish to make

700
00:33:03,759 --> 00:33:01,100
it clear that in this paper no causal

701
00:33:06,779 --> 00:33:03,769
link was established between MMR vaccine

702
00:33:09,999 --> 00:33:06,789
and autism as the data were insufficient

703
00:33:12,100 --> 00:33:10,009
however the possibility of such a link

704
00:33:14,609 --> 00:33:12,110
was raised and consequent events have

705
00:33:17,169 --> 00:33:14,619
had major implications for public health

706
00:33:19,269 --> 00:33:17,179
so it took a further six years before

707
00:33:21,669 --> 00:33:19,279
the editor of The Lancet retracted the

708
00:33:23,619 --> 00:33:21,679
paper completely which effectively means

709
00:33:27,129 --> 00:33:23,629
it is now scratched from the scientific

710
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:27,139
record and in another blow for Wakefield

711
00:33:30,930 --> 00:33:29,210
another paper which was accepted for

712
00:33:34,119 --> 00:33:30,940
publication in the journal

713
00:33:36,970 --> 00:33:34,129
neurotoxicology was also subsequently

714
00:33:39,190 --> 00:33:36,980
withdrawn this study attempted to show a

715
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:39,200
link between thimerosal and impaired

716
00:33:45,700 --> 00:33:41,090
neurological development in baby

717
00:33:47,499 --> 00:33:45,710
macaques so in 2005 Wakefield relocated

718
00:33:49,779 --> 00:33:47,509
to the United States where he

719
00:33:52,180 --> 00:33:49,789
established and became director of the

720
00:33:54,430 --> 00:33:52,190
alternative medicine clinic for children

721
00:33:57,460 --> 00:33:54,440
with autism spectrum disorders known as

722
00:33:59,200 --> 00:33:57,470
thoughtful house the clinic has come

723
00:34:01,590 --> 00:33:59,210
under fire for using questionable

724
00:34:04,060 --> 00:34:01,600
treatments such as collation a

725
00:34:08,260 --> 00:34:04,070
scientifically unproven therapy and

726
00:34:09,909 --> 00:34:08,270
dangerous therapy for autism Wakefield

727
00:34:12,490 --> 00:34:09,919
was pressured into resigning his

728
00:34:17,289 --> 00:34:12,500
position following the GMC findings in

729
00:34:19,419 --> 00:34:17,299
January 2010 so despite recent events

730
00:34:21,690 --> 00:34:19,429
the anti-vaccination movement continues

731
00:34:24,369 --> 00:34:21,700
to rally around their poster boy &

732
00:34:28,419 --> 00:34:24,379
Wakefield supporters have called the GMC

733
00:34:30,690 --> 00:34:28,429
findings unjust a smear campaign and a

734
00:34:33,220 --> 00:34:30,700
sad day for our children

735
00:34:35,230 --> 00:34:33,230
Generation Rescue which is a zealous

736
00:34:37,890 --> 00:34:35,240
anti-vaccination group in the US

737
00:34:40,510 --> 00:34:37,900
publicly represented by Jenny McCarthy

738
00:34:44,620 --> 00:34:40,520
issued a statement of support following

739
00:34:46,780 --> 00:34:44,630
the findings in January they said dr.

740
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:46,790
Andrew Wakefield is perhaps this debate

741
00:34:52,330 --> 00:34:49,850
greatest hero he's a doctor who has held

742
00:34:54,910 --> 00:34:52,340
on to the truth unbowed through pressure

743
00:34:56,890 --> 00:34:54,920
that would break most mortals dr.

744
00:34:59,050 --> 00:34:56,900
Wakefield's influence in saving other

745
00:35:02,110 --> 00:34:59,060
children from the fate that befell so

746
00:35:04,060 --> 00:35:02,120
many children is incalculable more

747
00:35:06,490 --> 00:35:04,070
recently comments left on the age of

748
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:06,500
autism website were supporting calls for

749
00:35:11,200 --> 00:35:09,170
Wakefield to be knighted so let's

750
00:35:13,060 --> 00:35:11,210
summarize the chain of events that led

751
00:35:16,450 --> 00:35:13,070
to Wakefield getting struck off on

752
00:35:18,430 --> 00:35:16,460
Tuesday Wakefield was getting paid by

753
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:18,440
lawyers putting together a class-action

754
00:35:23,530 --> 00:35:20,930
suit against the manufacturers of MMR

755
00:35:26,380 --> 00:35:23,540
for two years prior to the publication

756
00:35:28,390 --> 00:35:26,390
of The Lancet paper at a press

757
00:35:30,760 --> 00:35:28,400
conference following the publication of

758
00:35:33,610 --> 00:35:30,770
the paper he called for parents to seek

759
00:35:36,190 --> 00:35:33,620
out a single vaccine for measles and he

760
00:35:39,490 --> 00:35:36,200
himself had a patent on his own single

761
00:35:41,890 --> 00:35:39,500
measles vaccine the pathology results in

762
00:35:45,940 --> 00:35:41,900
a Lancet paper cannot be verified and

763
00:35:47,470 --> 00:35:45,950
are suspected to be fabricated the PCR

764
00:35:49,750 --> 00:35:47,480
data was found to have come from

765
00:35:53,140 --> 00:35:49,760
contaminated samples and could not be

766
00:35:55,150 --> 00:35:53,150
independently confirmed and no conflicts

767
00:35:58,150 --> 00:35:55,160
of interest were declared when the paper

768
00:36:00,070 --> 00:35:58,160
was submitted Wakefield did not have

769
00:36:02,770 --> 00:36:00,080
ethics approval for the studies on

770
00:36:06,310 --> 00:36:02,780
children and the study was only small

771
00:36:08,650 --> 00:36:06,320
consisting of 12 children so for such a

772
00:36:11,230 --> 00:36:08,660
small study that did not even examine a

773
00:36:13,630 --> 00:36:11,240
vaccines autism link it is incredible to

774
00:36:16,030 --> 00:36:13,640
think that it had such a large impact on

775
00:36:19,780 --> 00:36:16,040
public health but of course the blame

776
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:19,790
does not solely lie with Wakefield the

777
00:36:24,250 --> 00:36:21,770
media were highly complicit in spreading

778
00:36:26,530 --> 00:36:24,260
the fear about the MMR vaccine safety

779
00:36:29,980 --> 00:36:26,540
and the results of their misinformation

780
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:29,990
was MMR vaccination rates fell to as low

781
00:36:34,630 --> 00:36:32,570
as 50 percent in some parts of London

782
00:36:36,760 --> 00:36:34,640
and although the anti-vaccination

783
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:36,770
movement was well and truly active at

784
00:36:41,500 --> 00:36:39,290
this stage it must be acknowledged that

785
00:36:43,540 --> 00:36:41,510
this boosted their cause so it's

786
00:36:46,180 --> 00:36:43,550
incredible that even when this evidence

787
00:36:49,660 --> 00:36:46,190
all lined up people still continue to

788
00:36:51,910 --> 00:36:49,670
rally around angel Wakefield but he is

789
00:36:54,850 --> 00:36:51,920
certainly keeping some unusual company

790
00:36:57,400 --> 00:36:54,860
these days recently he sat down with the

791
00:37:00,190 --> 00:36:57,410
king of natural medicine Joseph Mercola

792
00:37:03,220 --> 00:37:00,200
for a series of five interviews for

793
00:37:06,910 --> 00:37:03,230
YouTube and a recent interview with Matt

794
00:37:09,100 --> 00:37:06,920
Lauer for USA Today was a very good

795
00:37:11,020 --> 00:37:09,110
example of how Wakefield now believes

796
00:37:14,290 --> 00:37:11,030
his own rhetoric and has completely

797
00:37:16,600 --> 00:37:14,300
jumped the shark the findings that we

798
00:37:18,370 --> 00:37:16,610
made originally have been replicated in

799
00:37:19,690 --> 00:37:18,380
five different countries of the world so

800
00:37:22,090 --> 00:37:19,700
the bowel disease in these children

801
00:37:23,410 --> 00:37:22,100
exists this is a little bump on the road

802
00:37:25,270 --> 00:37:23,420
and that's how it should be perceived

803
00:37:26,770 --> 00:37:25,280
it's a bump on a very bumpy road but

804
00:37:28,570 --> 00:37:26,780
it's a bumper what it does not detract

805
00:37:30,490 --> 00:37:28,580
from is the fact but there are millions

806
00:37:33,250 --> 00:37:30,500
of children out there suffering and the

807
00:37:35,410 --> 00:37:33,260
fact that vaccines can cause autism and

808
00:37:37,270 --> 00:37:35,420
I necessary mean is accepted you say by

809
00:37:39,490 --> 00:37:37,280
the American government because they've

810
00:37:42,490 --> 00:37:39,500
been settling cases of vaccine induced

811
00:37:43,690 --> 00:37:42,500
autism since 1991 you see you say to me

812
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:43,700
that the the findings have been

813
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:46,610
replicated i have seen studies several

814
00:37:50,680 --> 00:37:48,650
major studies your study involved 12

815
00:37:53,620 --> 00:37:50,690
children I've seen studies that involve

816
00:37:57,760 --> 00:37:53,630
hundreds of thousands of children that

817
00:37:59,620 --> 00:37:57,770
do not replicate your findings and so

818
00:38:01,900 --> 00:37:59,630
today will you sit across from me and

819
00:38:03,790 --> 00:38:01,910
tell me you still believe there is a

820
00:38:07,360 --> 00:38:03,800
possible link between that particular

821
00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:07,370
vaccine the MMR vaccine and autism and

822
00:38:11,260 --> 00:38:09,290
children no do I think it but the

823
00:38:12,910 --> 00:38:11,270
American government has conceded that it

824
00:38:15,100 --> 00:38:12,920
exists causal relationship between

825
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:15,110
vaccines and autism exists and they've

826
00:38:20,050 --> 00:38:17,210
actually been secretly settling cases as

827
00:38:22,150 --> 00:38:20,060
early as 1991 out of court as well as

828
00:38:23,530 --> 00:38:22,160
you know we've talked to people since we

829
00:38:24,820 --> 00:38:23,540
had a chance to meet you and you were

830
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:24,830
kind enough to sit down for that

831
00:38:29,230 --> 00:38:27,050
exclusive interview with you with us and

832
00:38:32,410 --> 00:38:29,240
and people in this in our government had

833
00:38:33,670 --> 00:38:32,420
said no no we no longer believe this we

834
00:38:35,470 --> 00:38:33,680
we went out and checked out the

835
00:38:38,320 --> 00:38:35,480
possibilities and we no longer believe

836
00:38:40,570 --> 00:38:38,330
this to be true and and every doctor

837
00:38:42,370 --> 00:38:40,580
I've spoken to says it's dangerous it's

838
00:38:45,220 --> 00:38:42,380
dangerous to even keep talking about it

839
00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:45,230
because for every time you talk about it

840
00:38:48,610 --> 00:38:46,730
parents stopped vaccinating their

841
00:38:50,530 --> 00:38:48,620
children and some children are dying

842
00:38:51,640 --> 00:38:50,540
from preventable illnesses not you're

843
00:38:53,550 --> 00:38:51,650
missing the point the point is that

844
00:38:55,050 --> 00:38:53,560
despite denying it in the pub

845
00:38:56,820 --> 00:38:55,060
relations campaign that they waged

846
00:38:58,650 --> 00:38:56,830
against me and against the parents they

847
00:39:00,390 --> 00:38:58,660
are conceding these cases in vaccine

848
00:39:02,340 --> 00:39:00,400
court what's your next step real quickly

849
00:39:03,900 --> 00:39:02,350
my next step is to continue this work to

850
00:39:05,040 --> 00:39:03,910
its natural conclusion these parents

851
00:39:06,330 --> 00:39:05,050
aren't going away the children aren't

852
00:39:09,390 --> 00:39:06,340
going away and I'm most certainly not

853
00:39:11,490 --> 00:39:09,400
going away so apparently Wakefield is

854
00:39:13,830 --> 00:39:11,500
not going away but I wonder what the

855
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:13,840
future will hold for him he has recently

856
00:39:18,330 --> 00:39:16,050
written a book called callous disregard

857
00:39:21,720 --> 00:39:18,340
detailing his side of the events leading

858
00:39:23,460 --> 00:39:21,730
to him being struck off maybe he can

859
00:39:25,140 --> 00:39:23,470
write some more works of fiction at

860
00:39:28,290 --> 00:39:25,150
least he seems pretty good at making

861
00:39:30,390 --> 00:39:28,300
stuff up he also claimed at an

862
00:39:32,670 --> 00:39:30,400
anti-vaccination rally in Washington

863
00:39:35,790 --> 00:39:32,680
last week that he plans to set up a

864
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:35,800
virtual university where he will design

865
00:39:40,950 --> 00:39:37,930
studies and recruit researchers to do

866
00:39:43,110 --> 00:39:40,960
the work as for this idea or no

867
00:39:44,670 --> 00:39:43,120
respectable journals or researchers are

868
00:39:47,610 --> 00:39:44,680
going to want to be in spitting distance

869
00:39:49,350 --> 00:39:47,620
of Andrew Wakefield although he does sit

870
00:39:52,770 --> 00:39:49,360
on the Editorial Board of Medical

871
00:39:55,830 --> 00:39:52,780
Veritas an anti-vaccination conspiracy

872
00:39:57,900 --> 00:39:55,840
theory laid in publication so perhaps

873
00:40:00,540 --> 00:39:57,910
we'll see his publications appearing

874
00:40:03,180 --> 00:40:00,550
here Wakefield's colleague professor

875
00:40:05,340 --> 00:40:03,190
Walker Smith a senior author on The

876
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:05,350
Lancet study has also been struck off

877
00:40:11,250 --> 00:40:08,890
the UK medical register the other doctor

878
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:11,260
under investigation professor Simon

879
00:40:16,230 --> 00:40:12,850
merch was found not guilty of

880
00:40:18,450 --> 00:40:16,240
professional misconduct Smith &

881
00:40:20,310 --> 00:40:18,460
Wakefield have 28 days to appeal this

882
00:40:23,850 --> 00:40:20,320
decision and Wakefield has indicated

883
00:40:25,770 --> 00:40:23,860
that he plans to do so if you'd like to

884
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:25,780
read more about this story or leave a

885
00:40:31,410 --> 00:40:28,450
comment I've blogged it at skeptics book

886
00:40:40,660 --> 00:40:31,420
calm and until next time this has been

887
00:40:46,790 --> 00:40:43,250
we take you now to a conversation being

888
00:40:49,220 --> 00:40:46,800
shattered across a hillside what I think

889
00:40:52,460 --> 00:40:49,230
I'm trying to come up with a brother for

890
00:40:56,210 --> 00:40:52,470
this podcast podcast the geologic

891
00:40:58,580 --> 00:40:56,220
podcast water geologic odka Oh Hobbs

892
00:41:00,800 --> 00:40:58,590
pointless meanderings skeptical

893
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:00,810
observations ridiculous musical

894
00:41:05,570 --> 00:41:03,210
interludes and not the hint of geology

895
00:41:07,970 --> 00:41:05,580
all right maybe a little bit Georgy

896
00:41:10,550 --> 00:41:07,980
what's not worth it a convert he's got

897
00:41:13,010 --> 00:41:10,560
the religious bore out of the week she

898
00:41:15,500 --> 00:41:13,020
has a ba braids jay-z lyrics food was

899
00:41:18,830 --> 00:41:15,510
asked George who cares what a boss of

900
00:41:20,930 --> 00:41:18,840
theistic fun oh good horoscope gotta be

901
00:41:23,510 --> 00:41:20,940
shot in the Bible morning girls it's all

902
00:41:25,550 --> 00:41:23,520
the science stupid Audrey adventures of

903
00:41:27,380 --> 00:41:25,560
the Philadelphia funk authority what

904
00:41:29,450 --> 00:41:27,390
Ukrainian boy playing drums the funk

905
00:41:32,150 --> 00:41:29,460
band must be fascinating o malli' back

906
00:41:36,020 --> 00:41:32,160
is appealing even a we beat grace that

907
00:41:41,259 --> 00:41:36,030
came in then oh my god guys good try

908
00:41:41,269 --> 00:41:49,089
the geologic podcast pointless but free

909
00:41:49,099 --> 00:42:01,890
children podcast

910
00:42:07,390 --> 00:42:04,269
well thank you for listening to this

911
00:42:10,059 --> 00:42:07,400
week's skeptic zone on next week's show

912
00:42:12,309 --> 00:42:10,069
the think tank returns and we might have

913
00:42:16,029 --> 00:42:12,319
some very special guests coming up soon

914
00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:16,039
so stay tuned for that also don't forget

915
00:42:22,509 --> 00:42:18,890
that tickets for Tam London go on sale

916
00:42:23,979 --> 00:42:22,519
on Saturday May the 29th and I've just

917
00:42:26,829 --> 00:42:23,989
found out that I'm going to be at a

918
00:42:29,769 --> 00:42:26,839
conference in Wyoming two days before

919
00:42:31,660 --> 00:42:29,779
Tom London starts so I'm hoping I might

920
00:42:34,959 --> 00:42:31,670
be able to jump on a plane and make it

921
00:42:37,029 --> 00:42:34,969
all the way to Tam London now don't

922
00:42:39,130 --> 00:42:37,039
forget listeners that several members of

923
00:42:42,179 --> 00:42:39,140
the skeptic zone are going to be at tam

924
00:42:45,549 --> 00:42:42,189
8 in Las Vegas and that includes myself

925
00:42:48,130 --> 00:42:45,559
Joe Benna move Richard Saunders and Iran

926
00:42:51,999 --> 00:42:48,140
to give so look out for us in Las Vegas

927
00:42:54,099 --> 00:42:52,009
and finally Tom Australia is still

928
00:42:56,859 --> 00:42:54,109
coming up in november this year and

929
00:42:59,650 --> 00:42:56,869
tickets are going on sale very very soon

930
00:43:01,870 --> 00:42:59,660
so keep your eye on skeptics Comte you

931
00:43:08,519 --> 00:43:01,880
or if you're on twitter you can follow

932
00:43:11,049 --> 00:43:08,529
at aust skeptics that's a ust sk EPT ICS

933
00:43:13,839 --> 00:43:11,059
so that's all from me for this week's

934
00:43:17,650 --> 00:43:13,849
skeptic zone and Richard we hope you get

935
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:19,690
you've been listening to the skeptic

936
00:43:27,460 --> 00:43:23,690
zone visit our website at www skeptics

937
00:43:30,689 --> 00:43:27,470
on TV for comments contacts and extra

938
00:43:30,699 --> 00:43:41,590
skin